Brother Hon. Uhuru is certainly a lost sheep with no clear vision on what to do with ICC matter. He imagines that somehow things are going to play out well. Beyond that, huge darkness pervades! He has even been using Sudanese president as a case study of his possible presidency. However, international diplomatic immunity thats accorded sitting presidents CANT be applicable in his case. Thats simply because Kenyan cases started when he was not enjoying that immunity. Infact, ICC prosecutor alluded to that fact when she stated that ICC cases had nothing to do with coming elections. Of course, Uhuru being awfully naive and ignorant of the law, saw that as an opening to go for presidency! But thats not surprising since Kenyans have tendency not to believe anything till it happens! The bottomline though is that we need to patently understand that laws can neither be post-dated nor retrogressively applied. We should thus be pretty careful not to willingly put ourselves in a bottle.
We should be awake to reality of consequences that would come with any election of Uhuru as a president. Uhuru is certainly not talking about those consequences because he is holed in a huge pool of raw confusion, desperation and outright fear. Indeed, if he were honest enough, he would tell Kenyans that his knowledge of what might happen is pretty juvinile! But make no mistake about it, if Uhuru is elected president, reaction from international community will be swift and furious. It wont even be surprising if freedom of the indictees is swiftly curtailed!
Jubilee alliance has been thoughtlessly using brutal raw tribalism that has only helped to reinforce prosecutor’s case. They are charged with crimes against humanity and at the same time, they are attempting to unleash untold suffering to Kenyans. Of course economic sanctions will be too punitive to already suffering innocent populace. That thin interlink that the suspects seem to ignore, is the catch that would prove fatal. Surely, genuine leaders with true love for their motherland, CANT attempt to bring it in harms way. Innocent people too, CANT form cocktail of suffering for others to purportedly insulate themselves. However, Uhuru and his bought brigade are living in unreal world that never listens to reason. Their estimation is that the only way to save their necks is to merely take the country down with them. That selfish attempt to wrench havoc on Kenyans, is totally unacceptable for it elevates them above the country. Such mischief can only come from people who have awfully failed to critically self-inspect themselves. Furthermore, their pronouncements and body language expose them as people wallowing in unbelievable bitterness. They have actually not been campaigning, but practically at war with those who are opposed to their empty schemes! Certanly, the sort of bitterness they are spewing might prove more dangerous than 2007/8 PEV!
Kenyans must ask themselves whether they are going to embrace bitterness in its totality, or opt for sober path. Exhibiting warlike characteristics while charged with crimes against humanity in an international court, is indictment that can only bring grief to concerned individuals. Innocent people innocently folks! They dont approach issues with what seems to be “come what may” attitude. I dare say jubilee leaders are trying to use us as human shield. Their run for presidency is actually the surest way in doing that. And any person elected on basis of bitterness CANT be of any good to this country at all. He can only spread that bitterness to every corner in the Republic. I guess, this “peace” we are being promised is meant to cover that obvious reality!!!!
I notice your comments are always as long as a blog…can you just write one? also on whose payroll are you because your comments are so partisan and you seem to be always uncomfortable with different opinions
@Amani: What are trying to say pal? And what is it to you how I go about things? My take is that you are exposing yourself to undue under-judgement! First of all, who told you that we have to be paid like those jubilee items in order to write? Some of us are too decent and patriotic to be involved in those dirty schemes. Just check my past posts and you will realize that I walked away from my village boy, Uhuru, soon after he paired with brother Ruto. Their combination became a disaster waiting to happen after they parted ways with VP Kalonzo Musyoka, the only international diplomat in Kenya today. Our estimation was that they were either to include him, or at least, clueless Mudavadi in their schemes for strategic purposes. However, once it became clear that even with all the foul clouds over them, they never saw the necessity to have insurance cover, we realized they were indeed dangerous fellows hell-bent on crippling the country. If they were genuine leaders, they would have seen the importance of mixing with internationally respected personalities for future negotiations. However, they seem to have taken your line of raw toxic tribalism which is sure recipe for disaster! Consequences that would befall Kenya if the pair is elected to power is too grave to be met with the sort of thoughtless dismissiveness we have seen thus far. Kenya is for 42 communities and as such, no one has a right to plunge it in to untold suffering! By the way, pushing tribal agenda in whatever disguise, is sure way to invite chaos in this country. If thats what you are calling “partisan,” you are dead wrong pal. We have discussed issues here without any shred of malice at all. Thus, the question of being “always uncomfortable with different opinions” doesnt arise at all. Obviously, you are the one caught in that juvinile circle of intolerance!!!!
@facebook-100000996986819:disqus I like you passion on this matter, but we shall agree to disagree. My View is simple and could be construed to be Naive but Only Kenyans can decide their destiny. I am not an Uhuru
supporter but on the same breath I am against the use of what I see as neo colonialist policies from our friends from the west. The
west has been advocating for democracy, in Africa for years isn’t this
it? Freedom for that old lady in lagdera to cast her ballot free of coercion or fear. I think Kenyan needs to chart its own destiny. So if Kenyan’s in
their numbers reconcile with Uhuru’s policies, personality, Strengths,
Weakness, Opportunities and Threats they will vote for him and if they
don’t they won’t. The west need not scare Kenyan’s with threat of
sunctions, they should encourage them to participate in this great
practice of free nations. After all they have been educating us on this.
They should come up with means and ways of educating the electorate as to why they shouldn’t not vote for Uhuru. The Kenyan people will rise as one and acknowledge that this is the right thing to do. The approach here is incorrect.
@james: I appreciate your nationalistic tendencies pal. But you must understand that we are the ones who called for international judgement. Nobody came knocking our doors to interfere my friend! The moment you called for that interference, you literally agreed to subject yourself to international standards. This other stuff is off the mark pal. You dont call neighbors to help you kill a snake in your house and once they break your things while trying to get it, you turn around to try to surcharge them! Thats the sort of illogical argument thats being paraded! That set standards is the issue here. First of all, even ordinary rape or murder suspects never enjoy any shred of freedom, let alone attempting to run for office. These are capital offences my dear! And when you are charged with capital offence, your right to run for any office evaporates.
Our western friends have even more strigent roles. They also know that its quite easy for suspects to play victim on gullible voters and get elected. Thats why coded diplomatic warnings have been flooding our gates! You should also know that if Kenyans elect Uhuru, they would have been duped. Thats because he has his both hands and legs tied by ICC, but he pretends he can change this country. He CANT! Furthermore, he was the MOST POWERFUL FINANCE MINISTER THIS COUNTRY HAS EVER HAD AND FAILED TO SHINE! He was only famous for refusal to release funds for projects and huge BUDGET “MIS-OUTS!” With that another near criminal record and leashed, how is he going to deliver us to heaven?
kwessi patt who doesnt know u operate this capital web and talk rubbish….we are so fed up with your stupid talks.
Wow…!!!! First mind your language. Secondly, what are you trying to say? Are the words missing, or blankness came visiting? Who are “we” anyway? I dont post to offend anybody anyway. I just write what I believe is essentially the truth or reality. You dont need to read my posts if you feel that bad pal. But you should understand that this “web” is about free democratic exchange of ideas. Its not about forcing people to accept your ideas or agree with them. We have to amicably agree to disagree my friend. On the other hand, make sure that you are not arrested by baseless tribal emotions that offer nothing but mere empty “almost unrelated” kinship. And this “web,” – Capital news, is owned by one of the most respected business persons in the republic! You therefore need to lay off on that one! Why cant you tell us whats eating you up anyway and stop coiling and recoiling on nothing??
i like that
Thanks pal, be blessed!!!!
Mr Wambugu,on whose payroll are you?We know who you have been campaining for and your intentions are well known.Kenyans know what kind of a leader they are looking for, so please stop wasting your time lecturing them on who they should ellect.Your hatread for UHURU and RUTO will not stop us Kenyans from ellecting them as our LEADERS come march 2013.
@patrioticKenyan: If Kenyans truly know what they want, what are you trying to protect or whats the pain? When reality comes crushing on us is only when you will understand the folly of pushing a car without wheels!!!!
ooh,director of political affairs in Railas campaign secretariat,i understand,you are just another ambitious Kikuyu who is seizing any business opportunity,wewe tafuta pesa.hiyo pia ni biashara
@bullstefan: Ever tried to ask your innerself what would happen if economic sanctions are imposed on the country? I thought it would be everyone for himself! Would tribalism protect us? Would awfully mean guys who own huge tracks of land and have refused to part with few acres to IDPs help us? Would they take our children to school? Would they pay college fees? Would they even think of buying food for our children? I dont want to take risks on people who CANT do the same to me! Cant their ambitions wait? Do you have to threaten a whole population to achieve your goals? Would twisted tribal pride save us from wicked agenda? Cant the country come first? Whats the urgency for, or is just to thoughtlessly self-protect?
Really!!! i dint think of that.but wait a minutewhere did u get those fallacies?why have they not put sanctions already??will they wake up one day and put sanctions?as far as am concerned,they can only do so if the suspects defy court orders,which they havent done yet.infact,they have continued assuring the courts of their commitment to the case,so dont worry too much,all will be well.
This is the narrowness that awfully threatens the country! First, electing people who are charged with crimes against hunmanity amounts to slapping international community in the face. That alone is enough to bring economic sanctions crashing on us pal! And the matter of sanctions wont be decided by the ignorant way you think, or at your village. They will be decided by those who rightly feel that international democratic norms have been crudely violeted by the very act of electing suspected criminals. That scale of judgement wont fall on us pal, it WILL be made by those who think and act decently! Uhuru and Ruto have already violeted conditions imposed on them by ICC anyway. Remember they were not supposed to meet at any given time? But they have blatantly ignored that condition. Its a matter of time before the issue nails them down. And as you have witnessed since the cases started, none of them has ever carried any favor every time issues against them were pointed out! By the way, whats your understanding of the statement to effect that “it wont be business as usual if suspects are elected?” Am sure you dont. Its a coded polite diplomatic warning not to even think of it! But do tribalistic gullibles embrace diplomatic language anyway?
you need to stop spinning words just for the sake of it. wht do you mean by “”international democratic norms have been crudely violated by the very act of electing suspected criminals?”” Kenya is a sovereign state, our sovereignty is vested in the people. The exercise that right by electing their leaders democratically. indicted or not, Uhuru and Ruto have every right to offer themselves for elective posts. president or otherwise. If the Europeans and the Americans impose sanctions on the Kenyan government for the simple reason of kenyans democratically electing Uhuru as president, then we will know the nature of their double speak. They have been very vocal in the championing of democracy. As for it will not be business as issue, those are just words of those with vested interests trying to protect their interests. We know some of this countries have invested heavily on a Raila presidency and for obvious reasons would be happy to see him take power. What better way to do this than eliminate his competition? or by issuing veiled threats to intimidate the electorate?
You are getting funny Mr.Steve! First, our sovereignty is no more than fiction. A good example of that fictitiousness is the fact that your favorite candidate chose to engage services of the same same western guys in his ICC case! And when we ran wild in 2007/8, we had to call same foreigners to undo our situation. Why didnt we turn to Asia or whatever for that purpose? Our colonizers have remained behind the wheel after they purportedly took off. Make no mistake about it Steve! By the way, why has our successive governments failed to take action against outspoken western diplomats? The answer is you dare not bite the hand that feeds you! To re-assert ourselves, we need to stop using reflectors on our vehicles while these guys – manufacturers dont!
As concerns democracy, you are awfully off the mark! You must realize that DEMOCRACY NEITHER HAS CRIMINAL SUSPECTS ON ITS RANKS NOR RECOGNIZES THEM! So this nonsense of using the person of PM Raila to justify the illogical is no here or there. All the same, whats this investment on Raila you are talking about? Any evidence or just another empty diversionary tactic? The fact of the matter is that Uhuru and Ruto are suspected who are said to have committed horrible crimes. Their cases have even been confirmed by ICC! Which means overwhelming evidence is there to warrant their trial. Democracy that you are talking about doesnt allow anyone to even hold on beyond suspicion! Therefore, unless you are reducing our democracy to conman democracy, the two gentlemen are supposed to have disappeared from the scene long long time ago! That way, their claim to innocency would have even made some sense.
But what do we have? Characters rolling out tribal politics to confuse population of their ill-intentions! You DONT FORCE INNOCENCY you let the truth set you free! Uhuru and Ruto have been violently claiming they are innocent. However, evidence on the ground suggest totally different situation. Its not a matter of debate that Uhuru was turned in to an instant hero in central Kenya “AFTER STOPPING KIKUYUS FROM BEING FINISHED.” What does that mean to you? Do you know why setalite imagery expert has been lined up as witness by ICC? Of course, if you believe tribally twisted poltics is your savior, truth becomes utterly too irrational!!!
One thing the USA senate cannot pass a sanction on kenya as republicans the majority would hear nothing of ICC.Why are kenyans still supporting UK n Ruto,its coz the cases r not offering the so called justice Kenyans desire.
My friend USA senate hardly opposes international matters barely on sentimental reasons! And not only that, once they receive recommentions from foreign relations committee, suggesting that USA interests will be threatened by suspected criminal regime in Nairobi, there wont be any shred of opposition at all. Have you forgotten that all USA diplomats who gave succesive Kenyan regimes hard times were all republican appointees? And who told you republican party embraces suspected criminals in their ranks anyway? You are simply being forced by toxic tribal loyalty to try to on hold on straws pal! Kenyans are NOT supporting Uhuru and Ruto. They are simply being bought to support them since we are deeply in hard times. However, that support is questionable, deceptive, yet to be seen or actualized. After all, huge crowds in a public rallies amounts to nothing, we have seen it before!
ICC cases DONT REFLECT THE TWISTED TRIBAL JUSTICE that you are talking about! They are international cases rigidly meeting international standards. Village ideas WILL HAVE NO PLACE IN THEM whether we like it or not. Decent innocent people act innocently pal. They dont violently proclaim their innoceny! The world is actually alarmed by the way Uhuru and Ruto have been conducting themselves. They will be faced by very unfrienndly situation in their next visit to the Hague. Their repeated arrogant actions, if not outright derisions, have only helped harden the resolve of international community. Make no mistake about it my dear!!!!
oops could have believed you if only you were not coeded
@sly: The country is truly threatened by Uhuru’s candidacy whether you like the piece or not. We need to ask ourselves what we are going to do if the worst comes to the worst. Assaulting people because of raising the matter wont help at all. Tsunami of economic sanctions WILL DEFINITELY come visiting if suspects are elected leaders of the country. There wont be any other “ward-off” opportunity at all. And thats the bottomline!!!!
What will happen is nature will take its course,If UK is indicted after 90 days we will hold another election.
I have been saying that pal! The question is: why allow scarce resources to be wasted on account of suspects? Furthermore, are we experimenting with trial and error when other nations are swiftly moving forward?
this is exactly the opposite! Kenyans are the Israelites and Uhuru is Esther only that this time Naaman is trying to convince Esther not to go to the King and plead for the Israelites and icc will go on with persecuting UHuRuto whether they win or not. It is better to try and become president now and will have some bargaining power in office like Bashir. When Bashir go to the Arab world for treatment nobody make any noise but when he come to Kenya, some hypocrite Kenyans create unnecessary scenes.
@jimna: You are awfully mistaken fellow! Sudanese president has NO BARGAINING POWER at all. It was Ocampo’s mistake to have charged a sitting head of state. ICC DOESNT BARGAIN ON CASES anyway! What happened is that international community, because of that mistake, simply took it on those charges. Thats why his plane has not been intercepted. However, once he leaves power, even special forces will be send to Sudan to track him down! Our cases are totally different since they started long before any presumed assumption of office. Thus, IMMUNITY WONT BE FORTHCOMING to our brothers whether they win election or not! Thats why ICC prosecutor, in her recent visit, kept on saying that the cases had “NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER WITH COMING ELECTIONS!” Anyone suggesting that Uhuru might enjoy international immunity if he wins the presidency, is totally misleading the public. The reality is that we will be presented with indignity of having our president being put on dock in foreign lands! Or more seriously, being arrested by foreign forces on the streets of Nairobi for defying ICC orders!!!!
Until Kibaki and Raila go to the hague the ICC affair is just another heap of western balderdash and hogwash……UhuRuto-SHA……………
When you want to bite the hand that feeds you talk like that! Who is Uhuru without president Kibaki?
Raila did not burn pple in kiambaa church,Raila did not slash pple in naivasha,let the HAGUE SUSPECTS CARRY THEIR OWN [email protected]!
Some fellows think they can insulate themselves from criminal charges by playing kindergarten political mischief! This is a matter of live and death! But am sure they still think this is a movie!!!!
@facebook-100000996986819:disqus if its a matter of life and death maybe for you then secure a rope around your neck and await the 5th of March to release..
Self-dilusion offers some bliss, enjoy it!!!!
So OhuRuto did???? Crap
Thats exactly what ICC affirms!!!!
Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla……………
That’s the mass action he called for,if he was kind enough to fly to Eldoret the next day n denounce the act,he would a hero by now.But he wasn’t so wise to do so.Kelele ya chura haizui ngombe kunywa maji
Just stay on the local when ICC is internation! They wont dwell on village feelings anyway!!!!!
If you want very long prison term abuse the judge!!!!
With protests gpoing on in Luo Nyanza against Odinga trying to impose his family and friends on the people, it would be great if Uhuru would suspend his candidature for the president of the republic of Kenya and instead support Peter Kenneth. I see Kenneth as being a viable alternative to Raila and Uhuru. Think about it, president is the servant of the people. I would nbot want to hire someone who has a serious court case pending. For people who think like that, what is the alternative to Uhuru and Raila?
Why not try to be an empericist. I keep saying that Peter Kenneth is a candidate of the elite. Just go to the common man of Kibra or Koch and ask them if they have ever hard of Peter Kenneth, they have no idea who that is. PK will perform dismally on 4th March 2012, indeed, one would have thought he should have been the one to support UhuRuto or the Wipped Orange. Some think that he is actually a PROJECT of RAO to split the central vote. But was that true the splitting of the central Kenya vote is a very far fetch wish. tt is like wihing that Tuju could split the Luo Nyaza against RAO.
Some truth! I dont even think he is his own man in his Kandara constituecy!!!!
It wont take long before you see those protesters singing praise songs to PM Raila. And Peter Kenneth is a fridge candidate that will take time before coming out of that fridge hole. Also, while he hasd some recyled ideas, he comes out pretty wooden. To move up with that marked steepness is like telling a fish to swim in a dry land!!!!
Maureen just prove that Raila is imposing his family on the people of nyanza,don’t act on rumours!between Raila and uhuru,who is a suspect?we can’t elect suspects into public offices,period!peter kenneth is good for 2017,for me it is Raila for now!
On the contrary to this article, the international community cannot do anything against the decision by Kenyans to have Uhuru and Ruto as their president and deputy president come March 4th 2013. The issue of freezing support and or markets for Kenya’s products is nothing but hot air. As at now, the international community need Kenya than Kenya needs it for several reasons. Most outstanding of this is the Somali/terrorism problem in the horn of Africa and the threat of disenfrachised groups in Kenya. But importantly, is the International community’s business interest in Kenya. Those who are giving these threats are Western countries. But they are finding it difficult to monopolise business and they did in the past against a revamped China and Japan. What do you think would happen to thier market share if they were to withdraw? And they would be sure that they would never recover it. Many of the western embassies and Multi- and bilateral agencies provide emmense employment opportunities for their citizens, sourning relations would mean closure of these offices or/and reduction of staff, thus unemployment. With the European Crunch and financial crisis in the USA, this is the last thing in the minds of these governments. We can keep going on an on but the bottom line is that this is nothing but HOT AIR blown to influence voters come 4th March 2013. Kenya is very strategic for the international community for them to ever think about a withdrawal and thus the discussions of this article cannot hold any water.
I wish the author was discussion policies of these candidates and the import of such policies to the people of Kenya and not a certain region as if that region is Kenya. Surely, 50 years into our independence, we should not be celebrating how susceptible we are to the manipulation of imperialists. This article celebrates what should be a national shame.
You are very mistaken pal! Sanctions is not hot air, they WILL SURELY COME as Sun does rise every single day. You are simply confused by tribal loyalty. However, let all other Kenyans have such conceited view about sanctions and we see what happens. By the way, have you ever heard of suspected criminals or criminals for that matter, vying for presidency anywhere on earth, even in non-democratic countries? Apart from moral issues, there are other important aspects that cant allow suspects to lead. First, leadership is about moral uprightness that acts as role model for the nation. Thats why western leadership CANT share a table with Uhuru Kenyatta and William Ruto. In other words, the two have blood on their hands! Decent decent leaders CANT touch such bloodied hands!
For one to fit in the community of nations, you must at least be seen to be upright and carrying the morality of your people on your shoulders. You dont turn on the table of leaders with your clothes spattered with blood of your people you buchered or buchured in your name. Even a pretentious leader WONT entertain such ugly situation! Whats being done here in Kenya is an attempt to turn things around in a way that extremely clouds matters. International community will have no choice but impose economic sanctions if Kenyans opted for poison bottle. Anyone imagining that somehow, those sanctions may not come, is a dreamer unable to read the mood of international community.
Furthermore, why has Uhuru and Ruto been banned already in some western countries if sanctions is hot air? I saw a lady in K24’s “crossfire” talk show program trying to say Prof. Makua Mutua and VP Kalonzo Musyoka are wishing the country bad by stating sanctions are just waiting for us to make worst national mistake. However, the two are prominant international personalities and know pretty well what will happen if Kenyans bring insulting situation on the international table. In nutshell, sanctions WILL SURELY RUIN THE COUNTRY IF BY ANY STROKE OF BAD LUCK, UHURU IS ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THIS COUNTRY. NOTHING WILL STOP THEM. A leader is supposed to be beyond reproach. But you see, Kenyans have tendency not to believe things till they happen. Thus, if you want to learn the hard way, you will but bad for us.
There are highly respected African Newsmagazines that have trashed ICC. The other day, I was seeing my lawyer when he asked me whether I read NewAfrican. I told him that was my first international megazine to read in those formative years. The publication is my favorite. Then he went on to dismiss ICC as nothing. When I told him the publication only raised a credible opinion that doesnt matter to ICC, he lost his balance. I had to rescue him by reminding him that what goes on outside the court hardly matters inside it. With his legal training, he quickly bounced back rightly asserting that USA is not a member of ICC. Then I reminded him that USA is superpower and cant be subject to whats presumably junior nations’ court. Again, he had to search for words only for me to interrupt by requesting we discussed what had taken me there. These mere confused “wanderings” in the wild that we believe are going to save us. They wont pals! By the way, there are alot of countries waiting for us to make mistakes so that they can even with us. Remember while still clitching to the west, we have turned to east. Businesses have been destroyed and guys must be bitter. Attempt a single mistake and whole universe comes crashing on us. Make no mistake about it pal!!!!
George Bush 2 was a suspected war criminal when he was elected for the second term in the US. You are the one awfully mistaken in swallowing hook line and sinker the red-herring of sanctions. BTW can you name the countries where UK and Ruto are banned?
Sanctions regime internationally are governed by the UN Charter and are a tool for the international community to deal with threats to or breaches of international peace and security, short of the use of force. The ICC is not a UN Court, and the UN as an entity is not a member of the ICC. Sanctions by the UN (international community) will simply not be imposed for electing suspects, or indeed if they decided not to cooperate with the Court.
Could European/ Western countries try unilateral sanctions? Maybe, but most unlikely, not least because it would expose terrible hypocrisy on their part, and for the most part they would have no legal base for such sanctions unless they are done under the auspices of the Rome Statute. For the latter case, a vote is most unlikely to pass not least because most members of the ICC would not allow it. Moreover, the countries already have a lot more challenges elsewhere, what with ongoing conflicts in various parts of the world such as Mali and Syria, problems in Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, Myanmar; way bigger concerns and challenges in Iran and Somalia; economies in turmoil in the US and in the Eurozone, e.t.c. The US and the Western powers have little political capital in the international arena and they will not use it for trivials such as Kenyan’s choice of CEO, unless such choice impacts on peace in the region and their concomitant interests.
Who suspected George Bush as war criminal? I thought that those were mere suggestions from defeated anti-USA forces! No country can attempt to punish former president of the most powerful nation on earth. For your information, justice systems goes hand in hand with political systems. Democracy only does abit of seperation. To be real, the most powerful wields the stick! Do you remember when Uhuru and Ruto last travelled and to western countries? The last time I checked US and other western embassies were just waiting for formal application of visas to shock the dou!
You get it all wrong here pal! Same same countriesd that are rigidly urging us to co-operate with ICC are the ones that hold sway at UN. Thus, anything they want will definitely take shape. This UN charter you are refering to is neither here or there. Sanctions are imposed through UN resolutions! Once security council agrees on the issue, unless permanent members disagree, the matter becomes a forgone conclusion.
When dealing with “small rude people” hypocrisy has never been the issue! Furthermore, people living in glass houses are not supposed to throw stones. The reasons you raised that might prevent sanctions against us, are the same ones that WILL hesten them! Afghanistan, N.Korea, Myanmar dont present the sort of “soft” interests the west has here. Some have hardcore issues that border on cold war era, not criminality! You need to kindly understand that western democracies DONT allow criminal suspects to infiltrate or be in their systems. This is the point you are missing. Mere suspicion swiftly destroys careers in the west! We therefore, must embrace whats internationally acceptable. Hidding behind thin stick of grass like a dog wont change a thing at all! It can only help destroy our beloved land.
The commentators who argued for war crimes against George Bush and Tony Blair were neither the defeated nor small ‘countries’ as you would have us believe. As early as 2003, prominent legal scholars and law schools in the US itself argued on the illegality of the war that Bush was waging and scholarly papers were presented outlining evidence of Bush’s suspected war crimes. Subsequent commentaries such as Bishop Tutu’s assertion of the same and the indictment by the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission should put paid your rather paradoxical argument that suspicions of George Bush were mere suggestions by the defeated!
I agree that the international legal system is heavily political and if you read my initial post closely you will note that this was at the core of my argument. That said, the international system is also based on the logic of the state, and if you have been following developments closely you will have noticed that the most powerful have been suffering serious hemorrhage in that power, not least with economic recessions and an Eastern shift in economic might. Moreover, even with the least powerful, the superpowers cannot wield a stick arbitrarily…there has to be some basis in international law.
As for the argument that the countries urging us to cooperate hold sway with the UN, that may partly be the case ( China and Russia will not support Western hegemonic moves), but like I pointed out previously, they need legal justification for any sanctions. The Security Council CANNOT impose sanctions unless they determine that a situation constitutes a threat to, or a breach of international peace and security (Article 39 of the Charter). It is not something that a few countries will just collude and pass! Like I said, unilateral sanctions are another matter, but the political capital that such will require is not worth it! Right now the US and UK especially need all support they can muster for measures they wish taken against countries such as Iran. Hillary’s successor will hardly expend political capital on a strategically unimportant issue as sanctions to Kenya for electing a duo that has been charged by a court that they are not members of. Such moves will not only lose them support from considerable portion of the African, Asian and South American block, but it would expose them to highly sensitive accusations of hypocrisy in light of their non-membership (unsigning) of the Rome Treaty. Abu Gharib is still fresh and situations in Afghanistan and Iraq are tricky…to put it lightly.
You are shockingly naive my friend! Street activists have no place in war crimes, let alone formulating them! Thats why I earlier referred to them as defeated anti-US forces. War crimes are initiated by a country. It raises the matter with UN and then the process starts from there. Those who dont represent states hardly get a hearing. All the same, Uhuru and Ruto cases are too clear-cut and far below debate. No country can fight for them when its clear theirs are suspected individual crimes. I noticed you dont have the courage to distinguish between their personal crimes and national ones!
You expect Rassia and China to stand with suspected criminals? What purpose will that serve for their interests? By the way, the two countries hardly stand on the way of USA! Remember only the other day, China agreed to have economic sanctions imposed on her closest ally, N. Korea! Chinese are actually the weakest in terms of holding out to USA. Thats because they reap a whole world of millions of dollars from huge US markets. Any threat to that lucrative business makes them pretty agreeable to USA. And Russia is no longer a big deal. Threat of economic sanctions by USA makes them recoil! Imagining that economic sanctions wont be imposed because world powers are engaged else where, is a cheap self-deception! Why cant you ask yourself why the cases were brought up in the first place? And do remember when they were being drawn, serious violent conflicts were raging in these countries you so readily mention!!!!
Making loud noise about a fallacy never made it a truism! That you would call leading Professors in International Law street activists goes to show how little you know about a subject you pretend to possess some expertise in! Was Kofi Annan a Street Activist when he in September 2004 stated categorically that the invasion in Iraq was not in conformity with the UN Charter and was hence illegal? Was Lord Goldsmith, UK AG a street activist when he advised that the war was illegal without a SC resolution? Were the bunch of Professors from such institutions as Stanford and Oxford who argued against the war Street Activists? Or do you confuse them with the over 36 million protesters against the war (some 2 million or so in Europe entered Guiness Book of World Records as the largest single protest of its kind)? Or is it that the Discourse in Chicago law School and many other forums in 2003 at which the consensus was going to Iraq on the pretext of WMDs would be/ was illegal? Whichever way you package your ‘street protests’, may be international humanitarian law 101 will tell you that law crimes are neither committed nor necessarily ‘initiated’ by countries! The UN as an entity does not handle the matter either. Before the ICC the Security Council formed ad hoc institutions under its Chapter VII powers to handle serious crimes inclusing war crimes – the nearest it ever got to the UN dealing with war crimes as an entity. Get yourself better acquainted with the subject before you continue tripping all over yourself on arguments that are neither here nor there! There are no individual and national crimes in any known law. Criminal responsibility has and will always be individualized!!
You will also need a little better knowledge of international relations if you can argue that North Korea is ‘closest ally’ to China! And more than international relations if it has not dawned upon you that if the duo you so virulently hate got elected they would be the face of Kenya in international relations! Without seeking to burst your bubble, the very weak but nonetheless veto wielding China and Russia have stood out against the US in Syria (no oil) and Iran; in the former case (Syria) with Russia mainly concerned protesting the ‘extended’ interpretation of the SC mandate in Libya. The ‘weak’ China is owed trillion of dollars by the US and has key geopolitical expansionist interests in Africa. Your very strong and invincible US has had to extend concessions to companies from the BRICS in the implementation of its unilateral sanctions in Iran, not least because they were defied anyway and it could not wield any form of stick! Anyone who does not understand that the charges were brought at a time when the Euro-controlled ICC was/ and continues to be in a identity ( and potentially existential) crisis is naive to the core. While as a Kenyan I applaud the institution of the cases insofar as they go some way to placing road blocks on impunity, I am under no illusions that the Europeans have the necessary muscle to push through multilateral punitive sanctions, or indeed engage in measures against the sovereign and democratic process of the country.
Obviously, you attempted to jump to the slighted openning you barely saw! However, street activists have never ever brought war crimes aganst anyone. I noticed that you never gave a single example of your assertions! “Club” debates and liberal discourses hardly amount to much my friend. You are simply attempting to cloud the issue at hand to serve your twisted interests. Precisely, an opinion by prominent personality might make newspaper headlines but wont go beyond that! Moreso, when vested interests of numerous countries are involved. In nutshell, guys with certain leanings make plausible noises all over the place. Nevertheless, they CANT push for war crimes against anyone. Perhaps, you are the one who needs abit of reading in international matters! You are simply running around in circles my friend! Just tell us which individual and where has instituted war crimes against anyone! Violent conflict winning countries are the ones responsible for that!
The question of hating anyone doesnt arise at all. Actually, if you check my previous posts you will notice that before they crowned themselves, I was 100% with them. We are only concerned about over-ambitious criminal suspects attempting to bring harm to the nation. You know democracy HAS NO CRIMINAL SUSPECTS IN ITS RANKS! Thats why mere suspicion is supposed to bring down political careers. And the very fact that your favorite criminal suspect dou would represent the face of our country if they win, makes us even more determined to question their motive. You know if by stroke of bad luck they win, we will be seen as moral vacuums out there! Thats why they wont be allowed to share table with other respected world leaders.
You simply dont know whether N. Korea is China’s closest ally. Thats why you are questioning my knowledge without a single shred of evidence to the contrary. Your zeal is only driven by (tribal?) desire to have your friends at state house! By the way, Russia and China have NOT stood against USA in Syria. What has happened is that while moral issues are there, US has few interests in that country. Infact, I suspect part from weak strategic interests, there are none! US therefore couldnt armtwist the two for close to nothing! Your estimation is that we are as powerful as some of these other countries. We are NOT! You need to understand that where forceful entry presumably meets mild resistent, USA wastes no time in going there, same with sanctions! And beggers DONT GIVE ORDERS my friend! With that in mind, you need to place interests of the country first before attempting to defend the indefensible. You are actually ploughing in to issues that uttely cloud but dont apply in Kenya!!!!
My final word on this as you obviously have a very basic grasp of the issues at hand and are going round and round without coming up with issues about which one may engage. As simply as can possibly be put:
1. The UN Secretary General and the Attorney General of the UK clearly stated that Bush was waging an illegal war with consequences identical to those that Karadic and others are on trial for. BUSH WAS SUSPECTED OF WAR CRIMES and related violations on international humanitarian law before the elections in 2004. You are probably one of the few that would trash the opinion of experts and very many non-experts in the matter. Being SUSPECTED of a crime is not synonymous to being CHARGED or INDICTED….in case this is the cause of your apparent confusion.
2. Your ideal of democracy is Puritan and utopian. One would wish that it were true but reality is so far removed that it sounds comical to assert that democracy has no criminal suspects in its ranks. Does one become a criminal suspect because of the act of being charged in some judicial institution or inspite of it? Did Tony Blair become a criminal suspect when he admitted waging a war that he knew to be illegal in your book or was he already one at the time of commission of the act? Were the likes of Milosevic, Hitler, and indeed the succession of American presidents who ordered the assassination/ murder of political leaders all over the world not engaged in criminal acts? Do you purport to imply that the electorate that forms the basis of democratic processes is clean of crime in its entirety?
3. You fail to address the issue on PDRK so I will not dwell on it. Suffice to note that there is no ethnic connection or such consideration in my rebutting your unfounded assertions. I will not vote for Uhuruto, but not because of the baseless spiel that CORD propagandists are
You have already veered off to issues that are not related to our case. First, George Bush was being flooded with war crimes susect tag when he had already left office. Had that happen while still in office, chances are that he would resigned if there were sufficient grounds pointing to that end. And even then, ICC or any other serious parties never ever cited or indicted him for war crimes, let alone his case being confirmed for full trial! USA interests in Syria are certainly not about hamas or hezbollah for that matter! These two organizations are pretty kept in check by Isrealis. US is only concerned about hostile islamic regime taking shape in Syria. Thats why I narrowed the matter to ” I suspect!”
In our case, Uhuru resigned from his ministerial post because of his very being accused of crimes against gumanity. If he couldnt hold his ministerial post, how then would he manage to move up to presidency? Does the strictures of integrity clause not apply to presidency or stand lowers than a ministry?
Tony Blair would have easily found himself in alot of problems if those accusations came about when he was still in power. Anyhow, “admission” and being investigated to the point of grave charges raised against you are totally two different things! With your unsupported justification, you can tell us where a suspect of crimes of such magnitude ran for president!
Obviously, Russia and China vetoed resolution against Syria because they were upstaged in Libya. The actually said as much! But there are alot of other matters that they cant dare veto. Our case is one of them! Why? That simply because we offer very little in terms trade than USA. You surely dont expect somebody to throw away a billion or so dollars a year in exchange for peanuts elsewhere!
i have my 1 vote and 101% for uhuru.The choice to whom you vote is yours….what ya comment on 1982 genocide?
@we are talking about ICC SUSPECTS,WHO HAVEN’T BEEN CLEARED BY THE COURTS,NOT THE 1982 ISSUE WHICH WAS CLEARED BY THE KENYAN COURTS,WAKE UP MARTIN!
And who said past tense crimes justfies present ones? Somebody is behaving like a blind animal in the wild!!!!
same applies to Heroics , yes RAO was a hero second liberation and all, but the events that have appeared after that including evidence of his poor leadership skills have gravely made me think he is not even the second best suited for Presidency of this country of ours .
I have been talking of scavengers and bought items. I hope you are not one of them! PM Raila has never ever had power to achieve his dreams. If anything, he has been frustrated by the powers that be. When forces are deliberated being set to stop you from shinning, how do you achieve a thing? Raila in most ways is like VP Kalonzo Musyoka. They have repeatedly seen their ideas being used to advance political causes of others! Thats why I have rejected longevity as way of judging them. Furthermore, Uhuru and Ruto have now done over ten years, whats there to show for all the noise? And dont forget they have always enjoyed unlimited state power? Same cant be said of Kalonzo and Raila!!!!!
The debate here overlooks one or two things: The case against uhuru and Ruto is public knowledge.The implications of electing the duo are also public knowledge. But have we considered this: kenya’s election this year could turn out to be a referendum on the ICC case? If Kenyan accept Uhuruto, they reject the ICC charge, if they reject the duo, they accept the ICC case.
Come March 5 and ICC could find itself in a dilemna: Kenyans, the experts on the PEV-because they witnessed and lived it, elect the duo that is accused of crimes against humanity. The Case will be deemed a sham in kenyan eyes.
You get it all wrong Mr. Musyoka! No referendum can be conducted around criminality! Elections and personal crimes are totally two different things! And dont forget there are alot of Kenyans who dont know anything about ICC cases, let alone why the dou were indicted. Infact, your argument takes the same same self-serving route taken by Uhuru and Ruto. They have been claiming that since they are yet to be proved guilty, its within their rights to vie for any elective post. However, democracy neither has suspected criminals in its ranks nor recognizes such suspects as supposed leaders! Thats why we have this integrity matter around their necks. In developed democracies, mere suspicion of misconduct ruins political careers. Needless to say, our new constitution has and borrowed that spirit from western democracies!!!!
Keep on preaching about ICC and you cant be sure as the case progresses RAO might be pulled in.We saw it on TV,i just wonder why he is not suspect no.1!
We are after criminal suspects pal. If RAO or anyone else for that matter, are found to have committed crimes, so be it! We are NOT TRYING TO PROTECT ANY SET OF CRIMINALS! But you see, tribalism is horribly irrational, self-centred and pointedly poisonous. Thats why you feel am fighting for some other criminal side! Am fighting for a better country pal!!!!
[…But have we considered this: kenya’s election this year could turn out to be a referendum on the ICC case? If Kenyan accept Uhuruto, they reject the ICC charge, if they reject the duo, they accept the ICC case.]
Prophetic views. Kenyans came out in unprecedented numbers to reject the ICC cases against Uhuru, Ruto and Sang, and to rebuff its local supporters led by the serioal loser Raila Amolo Odinga.
joseph mathius goebbels!
Have you been following the recent developments where US and UK have been categorical that they
Nearly 2 years later, Wambugu is not the Director of Political Affairs in the Raila Odinga Campaign Secretariat, because Raila FAILED and Wambugu’s gotta eat. He is now more anti-ICC (and pro-Jubilee?) than NattyDread.
With the world coming to Kenya today (28 October 2014), with Uhuru as the President, I wonder how Kwessi Pratt feels.