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  1. Truth Scale November 15th, 2013 at 9:19 am

    In Southern Africa the SADC tribunal was dissolved/suspended after Zimbabwe, a major culprit as far as human rights are concerned, complained. Now African countries oppose the activities of the ICC on the basis that it is targeting African countries. There is a sad relationship in the two matters: the accused complaining about the legitimacy of a court about to try them for their offences. That is shameful and odd.What are African leaders afraid of?
    In the meantime, African youths are fleeing poverty on the African continent and their dead bodies washing up on the shores of Malta and Lampadusa. There is strife is Libya, Egypt, Congo, Mali and Sudan. Rigging, dictatorships, corruption, civil discontentment, pillaging of resources, state-sponsored violence…What mechanism will check these excesses in the absence of an international court or in the presence of one that has a challenged mandate?

    Reply
    1. Qwani November 15th, 2013 at 12:32 pm

      Let us avoid generalisation. Don’t take Zimbabwe and then project it to reflect the rest of Africa. Unless you can provide a logical reason why the ICC has steered clear of Syria, your comments simply produce a strong stench of bias.
      As for the African youth, it is hoped that the commonwealth meeting in Sri lanka can address the root cause of these problems. Unfortunately it won’t. The problem is that many of Africa’s resources are taken to Europe, bought at throwaway prices only to be processed and sold back to Africa at twenty times their value. Zambia’a copper and Ivory Coast’s cocoa may be an interesting case study for you to pursue.
      As for your last question, for an international court to work, it must be an international court in every sense of the word, where justice is pursued solely for the sake of justice. Anything short of this and it becomes fair game. Its mandate must be challenged and its downfall most welcome.

      Reply
      1. Carey November 15th, 2013 at 12:49 pm

        From you comments ain’t you seeing African leadership as wanting….50 years later and still blaming the west?.How will getting out of the ICC increase the value of Africa’s products?

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        1. Qwani November 15th, 2013 at 1:32 pm

          Kenya will soon be 50 years old very soon. The US is over 200 years old. Britain is probably much older. As the US and Britain each grew as a nation, they learnt from their mistakes. Kenya must be allowed to learn from hers without being told to do this and do that or else! The primary objective of withdrawing from the ICC is not to boost the prices of Kenyan tea or coffee. Read extensively on the subject matter. I can’t help you on that one!!!

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        2. mkenya November 15th, 2013 at 2:12 pm

          Let them vote NO and the whole Africa exit ICC. Let them
          vote YES and we shall have a guarantee of peace and security in Africa. After all is said, Kenya has made and application to exit from the Rome statute in the next one year; and Kenya is not turning back. Then after exiting the Rome
          Statute, we will exit the Commonwealth. The above two institutions are Symbolsm of Neo-Colonialism!
          If u cant that the western countries continuous to squeeze raw material from Africa then influence who are our leaders by issuing threats, then u must b blind! Africa go africa!! very soon or later, things will never be the same again for africa, irrespective of there voting.

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      2. Guest November 15th, 2013 at 1:38 pm

        Qwani,
        I am a black African and the only bias I can have is for the progress of my
        continent. My comments were specific/general to the extent that it should be
        for a forum such as this one (which is not a thesis). Yes, the Commonwealth
        will not offer any remedy more than would self-audits and criticism (as in the
        EU), responsible leadership (of which the ICC is an instrument), abandoning the
        ‘blame-colonialism’ mantra etc. Your ‘…twenty times their value…’ assertion,
        other than being a generalisation in itself, brings another point:
        post-independent Africa has accepted (voluntarily, without Western coercion),
        Chinese pillaging of the continent’s resources for cheap labour and cheap, less
        durable products in return. We cannot pretend we do not have ‘made in Africa’
        crises, Qwani.

        Reply
        1. Qwani November 15th, 2013 at 2:32 pm

          I don’t know whether to respond to you as “Guest” or “Truth Scale”. You don’t have to emphasise your racial orientation in order to drive your point. Let your points speak for themselves.

          Try to understand that this is not a “blame the west” comment. It is a comment backed by facts. The BBC once did a detailed documentary on how Zambia gets ripped off its copper and how most of the profits are banked in Europe. Norway, a European country itself, is trying to help Zambia get out of that copper deal which is highly skewed in favour of the European mining company.

          China also comes to Africa to extract minerals, but it doesn’t enter into all manner of complicated financial manipulated accounting where the African country is severely short changed. It is also against Chinese policy to come to an African country and say that unless you allow homosexuality, no business!

          The west on the other hand are very good at attaching very long strings and making all sorts of demands that are completely outside the realm of business. Surely they can’t blame Africa for turning to China? Surely they can’t!

          Reply
          1. Truth Scale November 16th, 2013 at 2:38 pm

            You have the ‘bias’ Qwani! Zambia has issues with the
            Chinese: poor safety performance at their establishments, poor remuneration of
            workers, disregard of environmental and labour laws… this is a story repeated
            in a number of African countries they have interests in. Do you prefer this to
            the Western model of colonialism in this 21st century? (I know you
            are too proud to admit anything in contrast to your perceptive!). And you will
            confuse my points to imply that I support the western colonial model. I have
            not condoned any colonialism. From the beginning of my debate I have spoken
            about the need for self-audits amongst African leadership. This noise about the
            ICC is taking place whilst the same leaders (I do not have to repeat my
            examples!) show poor accountability to their subjects, grease their pockets,
            crush minorities, self-enrich, flout their constitutions and punish dissenting
            individuals (please don’t tell me you don’t know about these!). Or maybe you
            want examples Qwani? Research post-independence histories of South Africa,
            Ethiopia, Uganda, Chad, Rwanda, Zaire (now DRC), Zimbabwe, Malawi…and read
            about why even the great Nkrumah died in exile. (NB: This is my last instalment
            in this debate.)

          2. Qwani November 16th, 2013 at 3:25 pm

            The bitterness you have over UhuRuto clouds your thinking. You want me to see your point, yet your points are all over the place. Try to focus.
            You seem to put it that it is only China that are exploiting the miners. Have you wondered why the miners in SA have been on strike of late?? Have you bothered to see where and how the miners live?? Yes, the companies are mostly European.
            But back home here in Kenya, I appreciate the input from the Chinese. We now have super highways, our airports are being upgraded, the railway lines are being improved etc. That is the development the common man like me wants to see, not some ultimatums about choices have consequences!!

  2. Qwani November 15th, 2013 at 11:36 am

    That vote must proceed despite the obvious eventuality that the deferral will not be granted. The voting pattern is what is of significance here, not the victory. As for the ICC, the rest of the world needs to take a closer look at the way the ICC conducts its affairs and in particular the OTP and ask themselves whether the ICC are pursuing justice or are being motivated by other political objectives. For a very long time now, African countries have voiced their complaints about the ICC. No one would bother to listen. It is only now that they are beginning to pay serious attention. There is nothing as revolting as an unjust judicial system. The former European colonialists of Africa understand that all too well.The big question is whether Europe has learnt any lessons from the past or whether it requires to be reminded?

    Reply

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